Plucked out of thin air. That’s Chris Fitzsimon’s wild charge regarding our claim that there are an estimated 10,000 noncitizens enrolled as undergraduates in public higher education in North Carolina.
A quick look at the facts reveals Chris’ claim to be wrong and irresponsible. The 10,000 figure is derived from an analysis of American Community Survey (ACS) data. ACS is administered by the US Census bureau. Identified in the data are noncitizens (noncitizen is an ACS term) enrolled in public higher education as undergraduates. Our analysis excludes foreign students (UNC and NCCCS) as well as individuals with other academic or professional degrees. Specifically, the 10,000 figure is the number of noncitizens enrolled in public higher education in North Carolina who aren’t current foreign students or have other academic degrees. This information was all available when Chris inquired about our numbers. The point: the 10,000 figure is NOT derived from our data. It’s from ACS data (See: Higher Education Enrollment in North Carolina by Non U.S. Citizens).
Chris said he called the Census Bureau and no one had any idea of our analysis. I’m not surprised. The Census bureau makes thousands of data sets available so researchers can do all sorts of analyses. Our analysis was a simple query done on a PC, one of probably thousands of similar analyses conducted every day. There is no way census personnel can know how the data is being analyzed. Next time, if you have a question about the research, it might be more helpful to call the researcher.
I am not bothered by those who are skeptical of data or research. However, I am bothered by those who display an attitude of selective skepticism. While questioning our numbers, I am puzzled why Chris Fitizsimon fails to cast a second glance at statements many find debatable. For example: Does anyone honestly believe there are only 340 undocumented immigrants in North Carolina’s community colleges? Despite the shortcomings of how the data was obtained – and there are many – Chris sees no problem.It’s valid simply because the North Carolina Community College System (NCCCS) told him so. End of case, right?
Then of course there is the mantra that all the immigrants now eligible for community colleges were brought here as children. Where’s the evidence to support this claim? What we do know is the average age of students is 29. Finally, Chris says illegal immigrants really are subsidizing NCCCS. Figures from NCCCS might say one thing, but they are incomplete. To believe immigrants really subsidize NCCCS you also have to believe those who are here illegally would suddenly be willing and able to pay out-of-state tuition. Are those likely propositions? If you ask me, it seems Chris knows what he wants to believe –and doggone it — he’s not going to let any facts or questions muck it up. Once again, the double standard, played to perfection.
That 10,000 figure is NOT in ACS data. It is an abstraction of that data by Civitas. The data combines all third level education above high school (graduate and undergradute, public, private, college, CC, private vocational etc) and all foreign born non-citizens regardless of immigration status. In addition you continually fail to distinguish between illegal immigrants and foreign-born non-citizens, refugees and asylees who are legally entitled to attend at in-state tuition rates.
Over 1,000 refugees attend ESL classes in NC annually according to DHHS. You are pulling numbers out of thin air.
Greg,
Suppose you’re right about their extrapolations from data on people here legally. It’s not thin air, at all. Again, since when do people here illegally fill out data so that the community college system can have accurate measures. a) They’re making a best guess based on best available data. b) They’re making reasonable inferences based on people’s likely incomes. I think there are probably MORE in the system than their estimates indicate. Seriously have you ever been to an ESL class at Wake Tech? And why are you protect Fitzie’s numbers? Come on, man, speak truth to power!
From ACS:
Take a look at Application for Classification as a Legal Resident (Domiciliary) of North Carolina for Tuition Purposes. I’m sure it’s possible for someone to lie their way through this 4 page form but highly unlikely that 10,000 illegal immigrants are doing it.
As for “thin air”, I was going to use a more colorful metaphor.
I am surprised that a conservative would use the leftwing buzzword ”undocumented” rather than the correct and descriptive term ”illegal”. Calling an illegal alien and ”undocumented immigrant” is about like calling a rapist a ”nonconsentual sex partner” or a bank robbery an ”unauthorized withdrawal”.
Greg, Greg,… This is qualifying for in-state tuition as an NC resident. Someone applying otherwise would not have to use this — much less someone signing up for a couple of English classes. You’re reaching.
But, anyway, who cares? Legality is not a species of degree, but of kind. Therefore, your side’s argument fails either way.
Max, Max,…Civitas is claiming that 10,000 illegal immigrants are lying to get in-state tuition rates at North Carolina Community Colleges. They would have to use this form to do so.
Greg: I would suggest that you read more about the methodology we used in calculating the likely number of illegal aliens receiving in-state tuition within the community college system. See here: http://www.nccivitas.org/higher-education
-enrollment-non-u-s-citizens
Foreign undergraduates are excluded from the 10,000.
More to the point, those illegal immigrants most likely to attend a community college have been in the United States for a relatively long time. We are talking about people who have successfully evaded detection for 5, 10, 15 years. Do you really believe that these people are incapable of filling out a four-page form?
To begin with, the form practically invites illegal immigrants to lie about their residency status by making the inclusion of a social security number optional. Second, the application doesn’t require the applicant to show any form of identification that would prove U.S. citizenship or legal residency. Third, until recently, it was very easy for illegal immigrants to obtain a North Carolina drivers’ license — which, as the form itself indicates, may be used to establish residency. And if licenses are a little harder to get than they used to be, the fact remains that illegal immigrants have access to a thriving black market that provides forged documents of all kinds.