I have a friend who, up until last year, taught for a few years at Wake Tech Community College. She taught English as a Second Language (ESL) to immigrants. Yesterday, I asked her: What percentage, if any, of your students would you estimate to be here illegally? This was her response–and I quote:
"I would estimate about 90% – 95% were here illegally. But Wake Tech kind of caters to that population; the classes I taught were Basic Skills classes. It wasn’t a problem for us. Students had to have a tax id number, which is not hard to get (the IRS and INS don’t really talk).
New guidelines came out a year or so ago that may restrict some students from getting into the program – I think they have gotten tougher."
I don’t think my friend is aware of Lancaster’s November directive, since she stopped teaching about a year ago. Anyway, to those who still believe there are only 340 in the Community College system, I would emplore you: go to a community college near any agglomeration of immigrants here in NC and do an anonymous survey of their ESL "Basic Skills" students. Then come back, look us all straight in the eye and tell us there are a) "340" in the system, and b) that taxpaying citizens are not subsidizing them.
Most who are untroubled by abandoning the rule of law site this low estimate as some sort of scriptural truth that dissolves the law because its relative illegality is a matter of tiny degree. But in reality, the subsidy of illegals in N.C. community colleges very likely goes much deeper than our Progressive friends would have us believe. I have said, and will repeat, that we need federal immigration reform that will get illegals out of the shadows, into the light, and into a streamlined immigration (and assimilation) system. But I am not willing to toss the law while waiting for that hope. If I were to toss out the law every time I thought it needed reform, I’d pay a hell of a lot less in taxes each year and drink beer on the sidewalk. But I know that the rule of law must be changed from within, not from without by capricious politicians looking to woo Hispanic voters, or by Progressives who hate the very idea of citizenship.
-Max Borders
ESL is not a Curriculum course, it is a Basic Skills Continuing Education course with different entry and identification requirements and no fees. They take place at churches and high-schools across Wake County as well as Wake Tech facilities. The “340” statewide have been identified as being enrolled at in Curriculum courses, not Continuing Education courses.
There is still no evidence that there are more than 340 Curriculum students statewide. Basic Skills is not third level education. It is more like alternative secondary education. There are twice as many Continuing Education Students as Curriculum students statewide.
I would implore you to first double-check your own English skills before goading people into picking on the brown people at ESL classes. Out of an average group of foreign-born people in North Carolina you will likely find that one person is a naturalized citizen, one is a legal non-citizen and one is an illegal non-citizen. Legal non-citizens include permanent residents (green card), refugees and asylees. As I have said before, DHHS reports over 1000 refugees in ESL classes statewide.
It is pretty sloppy to assert that Progressive “hate the very idea of citizenship”. You have persistently failed to recognize the difference between US citizens, foreign born US citizens, foreign born legal non-citizens and illegal non-citizens. Likewise you have persistently failed to recognize the difference between Curriculum students and Continuing Education students at NC Community Colleges. In fact this whole issue came to the surface because a high school student wished to enroll at a Learn-and Earn program located at a community college. Yet another level of nuance that has not been explored.
I have never asserted that the “rule of law” is to be disregarded or that citizenship is unimportant. To the contrary I am quite aware of the value of each. I wish you would be aware of the laws that apply to foreign born non-citizens and citizens alike and not lump them all together as illegal based on appearance.
US laws are odd in that there are so many of them (hence the existence of so many lawyers). At any given time we are all probably breaking some law somewhere. Jaywalking, a downloaded song, a copy of software, a stop sign we passed by inadvertently, exceeding tthe speed limit. There is a range of enforcement from complaint based, being caught in the act, dogged pursuit and administrative triggers. We can’t enforce all the laws all the time. That’s not an excuse to ignore laws but it is a reason for a community to decide what’s important to enforce vigorously. It doesn’t help in that decision making to spread disinformation and innuendo.
I have no idea how many undocumented non-citizens are in Continuing Education courses. I will look you in the eye and say that I believe that the 340 number is accurate for enrollment in Curriculum Courses based on the degree of difficulty in enrolling in Curriculum courses and the fact that it has only ocurred in about half of community colleges statewide. Why do I persist? Because I fear for the safety of my brown-skinned citizen daughter who may one day be attacked based on reckless and untrue assertions such as these being made by you and your colleagues. So I ask you to tone it down and stick with the facts.
-Greg Flyyn
-Greg Flynn
Can you tell I’m bothered?
Evoking the “brown-skinned people” trope is a complete conversation killer. In fact, since you said it, it’s your racism. I’ll let you own it.
Your attempt to make bureaucratic/semantic distinctions that aren’t relevant simply clouds the issue of taxpayer-funded citizen benefits accruing to those who are not citizens and may-or-may-not be taxpayers.
If you’re truly bothered as you say, may be should talk about this offline. I think you will find that I’m more an “open borders” type. But let’s do justice to the situation and not mess about with the rule of law. And let’s stop putting up straw men and irrelevant distinctions to cloud the issue. In short, let’s cut the b.s.: is this a question of principle or degree? If it’s the latter, let’s stop quibbling over numbers.
And no, I don’t think illegal downloading is not theft because lots of people do it.
Hatewatch? That’s really disappointing, Greg. I’m slowly coming to the conclusion that there is no rational conversation to be had with anyone on the left. And your making accusations of racism is in part the reason why. How can we have an intelligent conversation as human beings when all of your arguments terminate in personal attacks and false accusations about motives? It’s totally destructive to any discourse. Do you really want to “win” that bad?